(Translated by Mark H Burton with input from Manuel Casal Lodeiro and Amelia Burke.)
On Saturday, May 14, Izquierda Unida [IU, the United Left political grouping] held a meeting in Madrid that had aroused considerable expectations among the activist sectors closest to Degrowth. Preceded by a public letter and a manifesto entitled Degrow to live promoted by various militants from the degrowth sector of the party, it had the support of its general coordinator through an extensive article (available in English). The article, which has a didactic but also ideological tone, published in the official organ of IU, where the author, the general coordinator, defends and justifies the biophysical need to put an end to economic growth. In the journal 15/15\15 we wanted to speak with one of the promoters of this meeting, the coordinator of the environment area and former parliamentarian Eva García Sempere, and with the general coordinator of IU and Minister of Consumer Affairs, Alberto Garzón Espinosa himself.
15/15\15: The meeting that you have convened through your letter and manifesto might appear surprising from the outside, but I imagine that it is actually the result of debates and reflection that you have been holding internally at IU for some time about the problem of limits to growth. Is that so?
Eva García: Indeed, it is not a new debate within the organization. That we have to live within the limits of the planet was already clear; now we are going a step further and proposing that degrowth is a reality and that together we have to design a political roadmap so that this degrowth does not fall, as always, on the most vulnerable.
15/15\15: A couple of things that stand out about the meeting are that the call is not only to social movements, which might be something more or less common from left-wing groupings, but also to other political parties. What response have you had from each sector? What other parties in Spain do you know that are part of this evolution towards Degrowth?
EG: The response has been, without a doubt, very interesting. Regardless of whether or not they consider it appropriate to participate as an organization in this first meeting, the reception has been positive and hopeful from of the organizations we contacted. And regarding the political forces, especially those that are also having these debates, it is very positive. In any case, and since we are still planning, we will have names on Saturday the 14th. As for other political forces, I believe that to a greater or lesser extent this debate is taking place within almost the entire left. A separate question is how it is approached and whether that position is the majority view. But yes, there are political forces that have considered it and hopefully we will meet with them at some point and work together.
15/15\15: Another aspect that draws a lot of attention is the objective of jointly designing a degrowth-orientated programme for the country. It sounds like the internal debate actually seems to be quite clear and you want to get down to work to turn the awareness of the end of growth into the elements of a practical political programme. Is that right?
EG: We are not naive. The debate will not be easy in any organization or political force (not in ours either) because, when you come to the concrete issues, there is a lot of apprehension: will it be understood by society? What will happen to this or that productive sector that is central to my region? Precisely for this reason we want to promote the widest possible space for discussion, with all possible viewpoints. Addressing doubts and fears together is usually easier. But yes, I think that from the start our position is quite solid internally.
Alberto Garzón: Our party was established in 1986 with the political-social objective, among others, of incorporating the environmental and feminist demands that emerged in those years, especially from the social movements. Since then, the ecological component has been strong within the organization, despite the fact that the IU’s ideological matrix has always been a classical orientation (to the conflict between capital and labour). In recent years we have made a significant effort with the activists to define a coherent ideological perimeter within which all these dimensions could complement one another. In the coming weeks we will present the main results of a survey on the ecosocial crisis that has allowed us to assess the scale of these ideological transformations within our organization. But I can share some findings now. Today, for example, practically 50% of our militants define themselves as environmentalists, 60% as feminists and 70% as communists; that is, there is a high degree of intersectionality. In addition, among the activists, 39% identify with the degrowth project. I believe that the situation is very ripe to address certain debates, without this meaning that they cease to be problematic.
15/15\15: The text “The limits of growth: ecosocialism or barbarism” has been published in English and has received praise from notable Degrowth thinkers like Jason Hickel and even from someone more associated with eco-anarchism like Ted Trainer. What other reactions have you had from abroad? Will there be international participation in the meeting?
AG: The document tries to take an approach that is rigorous, although not academic per se, but also informative. We knew that the fact that it was prepared by a minister increased its impact, and we have to take advantage of that. But in reality we had already advanced quite a bit with the work carried out by the Ministry of Consumer Affairs which is expressed very well in relation to the controversies over the reduction of meat consumption and the issue of mega-farms. But without a doubt my intention was to take the debate to new places, such as the communities of our activists or that of the people who relate to us but are not familiar with many of the elements that appeared in the text. The idea was to ensure that the ecological issue was not reduced to the problem of climate change, and therefore a debate was opened up on the measures that we had to take as a society in the face of a much more complex and threatening challenge than what people tend to think. The international response has been very positive, and that is why we translated the text into English. We want to continue weaving national and international networks that go beyond parties, because we understand that it is the only way to build real political alternatives. In fact, the article aims to be a starting point that will explain many of the upcoming actions and events.
15/15\15: And other leftist parties, beyond our borders, that are in this phase of considering the need for degrowth? I am even thinking of the Americas here, because although sometimes we relate Degrowth to countries like ours or France or Italy, what a certain left and a certain indigenism in Abya Yala has been defending for some time seems to point in the same direction, although they call it Buen Vivir, for example. I am thinking of the president of Bolivia, Luis Arce, the only one who at COP26 had the courage to say that to truly combat climate chaos it is essential to abolish capitalism. Is it too soon to start dreaming of an International of Degrowth and Buen Vivir?
AG: I think that a new common sense is being installed that makes the eco-social crisis a very serious phenomenon, compared to what might have been thought of this a few decades ago. Some parties have incorporated this into their project or their discourse to a greater extent than others, but it is becoming normative. We talk about the need to build a historical and social bloc —in Gramscian terminology—, so that we understand that it is an issue that goes beyond pre-existing parties and institutions and where the cultural battle is central. That’s why are now focussing more on building networks nationally and internationally. I think there are common threads so that something with a strong capacity for political intervention can be built at some point.
EG: It is difficult to speak on behalf of other parties. I sincerely believe that the debate is already taking place and, watch out, even in the most reactionary forces. What this is about is deciding whether degrowth is is achieved from a social perspective, to guarantee a dignified and full life and all, or as Capital has always done: excluding and expelling the working and popular classes. Either degrowth for life, or ecofascism.
And, well, I don’t know if it’s too early to talk about an International of degrowth, but it is undoubtedly urgent to establish an international space that initiates the political and cultural construction of an alternative model. For me, the ideal model for building a fair degrowth is ecosocialism. But we will have to listen to all the voices.
15/15\15:However, despite the interest aroused in the Spanish degrowth movement and these echoes from some foreign activists, it seems that both the meeting and the positioning of the minister have gone largely unnoticed in the Spanish media, where not even the right has taken advantage of the occasion to draw blood. Is a long article with academic references less interesting to criticize and misrepresent than a few brief common sense statements about intensive farming?
AG: Media logic has its own codes and rhythms and they are actually different from political logic. However, as I have already mentioned, the article aimed to lay the foundations for a line of work that we are promoting from within IU. Soon we will hold new events, perhaps debates as well, which can be understood in the light of that article.
15/15\15: All in all, this very clear and counter-current positioning of yours, Alberto, has been quite surprising. Those of us who follow the positions of the leaders of the left on the question of growth were aware of certain previous statements of yours, the signing of the anti-Keynesian manifesto, Last Call [Ultima Llamada], in 2014, etc. that made it possible to think that you might be one of the first people to speak clearly about the problem of limits. But perhaps what has surprised us most is that you do it while in government. Why this step forward now, this coming out of the closet as a degrowther, if you will allow me the expression? And why not before now, as some people are asking?
AG: You have to understand the aspect that we could call biographical. We all build our ideology socially, that is, in very specific spatial, temporal and vital contexts. I am from a generation (born in 1985) that has taken on board the ecological question from the beginning of my political consciousness, both from a practical point of view (living on the Malaga coast we mobilized many times against the speculative processes that were destroying the land and the natural base), and a theoretical one too (I owe a lot to my postgraduate studies, especially to my teacher and friend Ángel Martínez-González Tablas). These experiences have allowed me, as has happened to so many people, to be unable to accept any worldview or ideology that is blind to the ecological issue, and it has also allowed me to counteract the biases inherent in my training as an economist (for me the works of Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen and especially Robert Ayres and Reiner Kümmel have been essential). With this genealogical-personal trajectory, it can be understood that, when I joined at the federal coordination team of IU in 2016, I directly initiated a series of discursive, political and organizational transformations aimed at deepening a project that we could call republican eco-socialism.
15/15\15: And to what extent are the positions revealed in texts such as the one signed by Eva and the rest of the comrades from the IU Degrowth group and the article published in your official magazine already largely taken on board in the party? Where is the ideological debate up to and what are the most important obstacles that this ideological turn is encountering?
EG: In our documents, the ecosocial crisis and the need to adjust to the biophysical limits of the planet had already been stated, most recently in the latest documents approved in the Federal Assembly where we re-elected Alberto. It is a baseline in all the interventions that we make. I think yes, in general terms it is an assumption that we have in common that will nevertheless require, as I said before, a lot of work when we have to ground it in concrete measures that, understandably, will generate anxiety.
AG: As I said before, we will soon make public some of the results on the opinions of IU activists regarding the eco-social crisis. These are very positive results that point to the internalization of ecological discourse and practice. In any case, there are two things to keep in mind. The first is hat we are not for a semantic fight regarding the ideological definition —many people can take on board degrowth approaches even if they do not like or do not fully understand the concept itself. The second is that you have to compete with narrow visions, such as the one known as red and brown, which also have a presence on all the left. Our intention is to secure a majority for an ecosocialist, feminist and republican project, within the organization and in society. This is what we have accelerated in particular since 2016, while moving in an extremely complex political-national context (also and above all, in the spaces of the left). Throughout it all, but with prudence and humility, I think we are doing well.
15/15\15: Traditionally the fundamental axis of partisan politics has been between left and right. But in times of eco-social collapse, the axis growth-degrowth or productivism-social ecology becomes even more important. Do you agree with this assessment? The big question that needs to be resolved is perhaps how to combine left-wing policies that speak to today’s social problems, while maintaining a long-range ecological policy to re-situate ourselves within the limits of the biosphere?
EG: Degrowth is already here, we repeat that ad nauseum. And that the important thing is to address the who, the how, the much, of that contraction. In this sense, we can agree that there can be profoundly degrowth policies and, also, profoundly unfair ones. Without the view of the left, without being clear that solutions must embody social justice, then rather than having proposals for degrowth, we will find ourselves with a massacre. The policies of the left are a necessary condition, although not sufficient, to deal with a just outcome. It has to be an eco-socialist left that identifies the planetary limits as the defining framework.
AG: Indeed, as I have already said, we come from a classical tradition where the capital-labor conflict has been central, if not the only one. To a great extent, it is a tradition that is blind to the ecological question and to patriarchal oppression. We are correcting these deficiencies without falling into the other great risk, that is, in considering that the solution is to form a liberal-green party that downplays social issues (inequality, poverty, class struggle…). It means the detailed work of combining theory with political practice. In 2017 I wrote a book called Por qué soy comunista [Why I am a Communist], very theoretical (it dealt with everything from the philosophy of science to the theory of the capitalist state) and some prominent leaders of my party criticised me for having included a chapter on political ecology. Five years later I can say that this kind of resistance is already insignificant within IU [United Left party]. Today we are in a different phase. Fortunately.
15/15\15: Your article says, Alberto: “the central task of democratic societies should be to build resilient communities capable of prioritizing the well-being of their populations without permanently damaging the natural environment that sustains them, as well as preventing the escalation of social conflicts and wars, which are increasingly linked to the eco-social crisis”. Building resilient communities sounds great, and nominally very much in line with this Recovery and Resilience Plan, but do you see that these important economic resources are being dedicated, this enormous loan that we have forced our sons and daughters to grant us, really to being used make us more resilient in the face of the clash with the limits?
AG: I still don’t feel capable of being able to freely comment on many of the experiences that we are accumulating during our time in the Government. But I could say that there are indeed numerous inertias —ideological and practical— that from the civil service and the parties promote public policies that not only do not take into account the eco-social crisis but, in fact, aggravate it. The controversy of the reduction of meat and industrial farming not only revealed the weight of strong business interests but also of a very dangerous inertia within public sphere, even from those considered progressive.
EG: An enormous effort is being made to allocate resources to alleviate the consequences of the latest crisis resulting from the pandemic. But, without a doubt, we continue with a developmentalist strategy: many more resources are invested in the development of renewable energies than in improving the energy efficiency of buildings and reducing energy consumption, for example. So we’re not doing well.
15/15\15: The article began by reminding us that this year marks half a century since the publication of Limits to Growth. One of the most unknown characteristics of the model used by its authors is its extremely high degree of success in predicting what would happen around this third decade of the twentieth century if nothing was done, that is to say the so-called “standard run”. When an economist aware of this speaks with an economist such as Minister Calviño, who does not have any econometric model with predictive capacity that even approaches this degree of success in the long term, in what terms does the conversation take place? Or perhaps we are very naive and the Minister of Economy does not even deign to start a conversation about her area with a Minister of Consumer Affairs who, furthermore, does not even belong to the same party… I say this because even Minister Ribera, who is from the same party as Calviño, seems to have a quite different discourse and is much more aware of the limits.
AG: To my comment on the previous answer, I would add that coalition governments are like this … there are differences about diagnoses, interpretations and, above all, about possible solutions to the problems. The resolution of these differences depends on the classic constellation of forces, although we should not understand this in a purely numerical sense (so many ministries or MPs) but from a Poulantzian conception of the State, that is, as a condensation of the forces in society itself. That is why the cultural battle is so important. And little by little progress is being made… Greenhouse gas emissions have been included in the Government’s latest macroeconomic chart, which traditionally only incorporated classical macroeconomic variables. And even the Bank of Spain has made a dossier on climate change… The risks of this path exist (from greenwashing to trivializing the problem) but with a framework of eco-social crisis in place it is much easier to also achieve administrative gains.
15/15\15: All in all, reliable sources have been telling us for some time that within the PSOE they were considering replacing the GDP and not long ago Pedro Sánchez even spoke about the drawbacks of this indicator and that it was necessary to go “move beyond GDP”. Is it very naive to hope that a movement from outside like the one you are pushing now might stimulate these proto-degrowthers inside other parties, like the PSOE, to come out of the closet? Because the most difficult thing was to put the bell on the cat and now that you have dared, it seems that that stage fright of being the first disappears as an alibi for silence, right?
AG: As I was saying, I think this depends on the cultural battle itself and the dominant frameworks. That is why, for example, the controversy over the reduction of meat and the mega-farms was important. They open debates that, although hard for some protagonists (starting with me), clearly delineate the subsequent playing field.
EG: Well, hopefully this first step will serve to help other forces to move on! A welcome to all those who want to build the future. I don’t know if it’s naive to influence them, but I do think that this debate is taking place in many more spaces than we think, whether or not they decide to make it public.
15/15\15: Returning now to the meeting this Saturday, tell us, Eva, how it is going to be structured, what issues are going to be dealt with or how you are going to approach the dialogue with the other groupings and social movements.
EG: The sessions will be structured around four areas of work: economy and employment, energy and raw materials, public services and food and consumption. The idea is that it serves as a starting point to begin talking about how to build a country-wide proposal in a context of decreasing resources: what health services?, what education?, what energy consumption?, what food model? But that, as a start, we intend it to be just a starting gun and that, from there, open working groups will be formed to reflect and work on proposals that we can advocate from all fronts: politicians, unions, associations, etc. Both with those who participate on Saturday, and those who join in later, we want to open up a constant dialogue: if this is only a space for IU militants, we will have failed. We must open the space so that we are all comfortable and this, too, will have to be reflected on Saturday.
15/15\15: I imagine that one of the critical points to launch a degrowth program is how to do it within the neoliberal framework set by the European Commission. Do you have allies in other European countries to work on this line? Would a degrowth program be possible in a member country of an EU clearly oriented towards impossible perpetual growth? To paraphrase Trotsky’s famous concern, is Degrowth possible in one country?
AG: International institutions have reached conclusions, such as the Paris Agreement or the European Green Deal, in which they recognize the ecological challenges. Their main concern is climate change, and they propose emission reduction targets that are desirable, such as neutrality in net emissions by 2050. The problem is twofold. First of all, everything is entrusted to decoupling and, to a large extent, to technological efficiency. Scientific evidence suggests that this process is unlikely and, in any case, when it does occur, it does so at a rate lower than that required to prevent a collapse. Second, because not even those agreements are being fulfilled. The significant drop in emissions that occurred in 2020 —6%— was precisely due to the economic consequences of such a health disaster as was the pandemic. The main virtue of degrowth is to state that the objective is to scale down in an organized, planned manner, compatible with democratic principles and values, and not through a disaster. Precisely because of all this, because of the current globalized context, one of the main political objectives is to weave international networks and while we build resilient communities from below, we are also establishing security networks at an international level.
EG: I would add that a maximalist programme of absolute degrowth, does not seem very possible. But I think that in this too the idea that the best is the enemy of the good should govern. If we think of creating a degrowth country [degrowth in a single country – tr.], we will probably go headlong into frustration, and even more so being immersed in the framework of the European Union. But let’s walk, let’s explore the limits we have and be aware that each step we take must bring us closer to the goal.
15/15\15: In the context of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and its energy and economic consequences, which are added to those of the pandemic, is it easier to state the need to degrow or at least to be more resilient through greater self-sufficiency, for example? The other day, Prime Minister Sánchez said that one cannot depend on overseas sources in basic matters for the economy or Borrell said that our energy could not depend on external sources… This, if taken seriously, can only happen through a decrease in material consumption and energy and by a deep economic re-localisation. But it seems that they are not yet able to connect the dots, to recognize the profound implications of these objectives or of the necessary decarbonization and circular economy. Because the circles do not grow, and if you use your output from the previous year as input, you are in a homeostatic economy and the GDP cannot grow. Are politically exploitable cracks opening up for Degrowth and Ecosocialism thanks to this pedagogy of catastrophes?
AG: The Ecological Transition has been proposed by the European institutions as a mechanism that, above all, revolves around the energy transition. That’s fine, of course, because everything that involves moving towards all energy production with renewable sources will be a good idea. Although it is true that other types of ecological and social costs derived from this transition are being underestimated, such as the scarcity of minerals necessary for the construction of solar panels or wind farms and the environmental and social impact that the construction of these infrastructures has on the land and its populations. It is true that the war has accelerated the perception that it is important to accelerate this transition, but the official discourse is unfocused. It is expressed in terms of geopolitical parameters, and although in part it overlaps with the ecological discourse, it also involves strong contradictions. We see it when countries make efforts to acquire energy from other fossil fuel sources without recognizing the fundamental thing: we must reduce the energy consumption of the economy as a whole. What links both ideas is the following point: the energy performance of renewable sources will not be sufficient to cover current demand (not to mention certain logistical problems) and, therefore, the only viable path is to reduce the level of energy consumption.
15/15\15: Your article, Alberto, appeals precisely to Ecosocialism. But it is not uncommon that when you debate, for example, with certain trade unionists and defend Degrowth, they tell you: “No, but there is another preferable alternative: ecosocialism.” It seems that it is always convenient to clarify which ecosocialism we are talking about. Because it could be either a technolatric or a barefoot one, to use Riechmann’s. Or one more focused on the role of the State or one more inclined to leave room for local self-management. What is the ecosocialism that you see IU promoting in the short to medium term?
AG: Here I see two different things that we have to take into account. In the first place, there is no doubt that there are different proposals that, as Weberian ideal types, embody different traditions of thought and that can be pitted against each other theoretically. There the labels, which could help, usually tend to be a problem. We have seen this many times on the left, since the activist associates a label with an ideological package and prejudges reality from there. However, experience tells us that when we get down to specific policies there is often much more agreement than disagreement. Secondly, the theoretical conflict can be resolved in practice, and practice suggests that the formula that is generally more appropriate is the one that combines elements from different traditions. This type of approach, I believe, is the one that emanates from the Manifesto for an Ecosocialist Degrowth signed by Kallis and Löwy among others.
EG: In my opinion, we need to work with mixed proposals. We need state planning proposals in the productive sectors to guarantee essential services, including food, of course. Or water, energy, waste management… but there are many and very interesting self-management initiatives that, of course, are key in the decentralization process that is necessary in order to move towards a degrowth model.
15/15\15: Do you see degrowth ecosocialism as opposed to that catch-all of the Green New Deal or do you think that there is a certain margin of compatibility between both proposals, bearing in mind that the latter has come from groupings that are committed to continued growth, if now in a green way?
EG: Surely we can work on common proposals. Is it necessary to degrow? Yes, sure. In all sectors and treating the entire population the same way Well, certainly not.
AG: I think that the strategies of the Green New Deal and all those that are based on the assumptions of the feasibility of decoupling propose policies that are necessary. The problems are, for me, twofold. The first, that these measures are clearly insufficient to correct the course at the right pace. The second, that many of these proposals are refracted, as in the case of the European Union, through technocratic glasses that relegate social issues to second place.
15/15\15: Julio Anguita, who came to recognize himself as a defender of Degrowth in an interview, said that austerity should be a value that the left should embrace. But it seems difficult when the majority of the left has bought this usurpation of the term austerity from neoliberalism and has ended up identifying it with the plundering of public affairs together with cuts in social spending. It seems clear that the battle for words is part of the underlying cultural war, and that this is ultimately what degrowth is all about… Creating (or recreating) a culture that knows how to live well with less and that comes to want it as a social goal to build together. Do you agree with this assessment?
EG: I totally agree. The cultural battle will be key. Not only because of the illuminating example of austerity. It is that in general we have spent decades in which the good life has been associated with consumption by all social classes. And I’m not referring to the most essential consumption, of course, but to created needs: I need a new mobile (although mine works perfectly), I need new clothes for this season, and so on. Degrowth must be worked on not from denial (everything we won’t have), but from an exciting position: everything we will gain, which could be a lot.
AG: One of Berlinguer’s most fruitful proposals was to defend the notion of austerity, long before the neoliberal project appropriated that idea and redefined it in a sense that was only valid for public finances. The truth is that we are necessarily heading for another type of relationship, in magnitude, with the natural environment (resources and energy especially), so that the left will have to dialogue with a culture of austerity. There are lines of work such as consumption corridors or post-growth economies that are very suggestive. For example, I find that classical liberal John Stuart Mill’s notion of the stationary state extremely useful, since he also linked it to the idea of equality. Much remains to be done on those lines.
15/15\15: The greatest danger in trying to maintain growth when we have already hit the ceiling as a civilization is trying to maintain it at the expense of others. In other words, if the cake decreases and we want our piece to continue growing, there is only one way: to deprive others of their part, that is, the “barbarism” that Alberto’s article speaks of, in a neocolonial iteration. Is this the key to understanding class struggle and geopolitics from now on?
AG: Indeed, that’s why I used this same idea in the title. Many people believe that ecological collapse is something like post-apocalyptic movies where society completely falls apart. This is unlikely to happen. Without a doubt, civilization as we know it can collapse, and we can enter an uncharted land of social and political conflicts of different scales. But if we slip through these scenarios, it is most likely that we will witness a Weberian social closure, that is, the raising of entry barriers by the oligarchies for the rest of the population. In other words, we would be facing a disproportionate increase in inequality in access to resources, energy and services and, therefore, to the material conditions of life. That is, in short, ecofascism: forms of civilization in which the right to life and its characteristics are distributed asymmetrically. This is the extreme degree of what we are already experiencing with immigration policies at the borders of the EU, for example.
EG: That’s one of the keys. If there is something that the left understands and claims, it is the class struggle. The current struggle for resources is neither more nor less than classical class struggle. Only now it is more dramatic and definitive. Well, that is what we are talking about when we say that we have to degrow: because that contraction must necessarily entail planning and redistribution. And, of course, high doses of internationalism to combat the attitude of “I’m alright Jack”.
15/15\15: Speaking of class struggle, the question of work, understood as employment, is key to combining Degrowth and leftist policies. You usually talk about Guaranteed Work. Ecologists in Action promote a radical distribution of working time, like others in Social Ecologism and Degrowth, and there is also the proposal for Universal Basic Income, perhaps as an alternative or as a complement to all of this. But isn’t it also time to start considering new-old formulae that do not rely on work, which is still a social construct born of capitalism and industrialization, formulae instead that have to do with work for the community, people-care and earth-care? Do you have thoughts in IU about a future beyond work as the only way of life?
AG: It is important to understand that the innumerable life improvements of the last two hundred years, although unevenly distributed, find their source in the improvement of labour productivity. This labour productivity has grown, spurred on by technology, which in turn depends on fossil fuels. The fragility of the current growth model is centred there. As long as we must de-escalate our level of economic activity in general, and of material and energy intensity in particular, the logical thing is that the productivity of work is reduced. Labour productivity is a ratio between production (measured in monetary value) and work (measured in hours or people). If, on the other hand, we consider an extensive definition of work —and one that includes care work and all services not valued by the market— we have to accept that for a society to function, it is necessary to work. In any society, and as has happened historically, it is necessary to produce in order to feed oneself, it is necessary to maintain the services and public goods that have been established that are fundamental for the satisfaction of basic needs (read health, education…), etc. I mean, you have to work. What we have to talk about is how this work is distributed and what is the energy and resource consumption that is going to be produced with each social configuration. If we move towards activities that are less intensive in energy and material consumption and at the same time reduce working hours and/or increase the working population, it is likely that we will witness a reduction in labour productivity. But so long as Guaranteed Work does not mean “compulsory work” and that Universal Basic Income does not mean “you do not work”, I believe that a sincere dialogue between both proposals is perfectly possible.
15/15\15: And finally, what does the ecological economist Tim Jackson suggest to you when he says that the prosperity of the West needs to configure a much more austere life and that governments are incapable of formulating a degrowth program without losing the elections in the face of the false promises of rivals who promise to avoid disaster and continue to grow?
EG: That is one of my fears, I admit it. When they talk about what is important, it is what we do (the material) and not what we say (the cultural battle); we lose sight of the fact that without winning in the street, without people understanding why and for what purpose we propose this or that measure, we are dead. If we are not able to explain that degrowth is not against the working class and so the working class understands it that way, we will throw them into the arms of the rival, and the current rival is very scary. That is why it is so urgent that we involve organizations, parties, unions…. in this process.
AG: Perhaps your question crystallises much of what we have talked about in this interview: the cultural battle and how the fetish of growth is deeply rooted in the minds of citizens. However, there are reasons for hope. It must be taken into account that the reality indicates that not only with more economic growth is there not more happiness (the Easterlin paradox), but in many cases this dynamic leads to the growth of mental problems in modern societies (stress, anxiety, depression). .). Phenomena such as the Great Resignation in the United States, or the growing acceptance of a reduction in the working day in part of Western society, point to important cracks in the received common sense. In this way, I believe that setting out proposals aimed at Buen Vivir could gain general acceptance.
 Spanish politics can seem like a set of Matryoshka, Russian dolls. Izquierda Unida is composed of the Spanish Communist Party and a number of small regional parties. IU is part of an electoral alliance with the newer democratic socialist formation, Podemos and allies, as Unidas Podemos. Unidas Podemos entered the coalition government with Spain’s equivalent of the Labour Party, the PSOE.
 This is an increasingly used indigenous name for the Americas (from the Guna language spoken in the Darien area of what is now Panama and Colombia), chosen as symbolic of the rights and presence of the first nations and the decolonial perspective.
 Jorge Riechmann, Spanish philosopher, poet, political and ecological activist, author of many books on the ecological crisis, including Ecosocialismo decalzo (Barefoot ecosocialism), 2018.
 Here the interviewer makes a distinction in the original Spanish text, between trabajo (paid work) and labor (human activities needed for life, usually unpaid). The difference in Spanish and other Romance languages has to do with the origin in the Latin word tripallium, a torture system, and is very tricky to translate into English. Some authors like Silvia Federici and José Manuel Naredo argue that, in this sense, the trabajo concept was almost inexistent and unnecessary in agrarian cultures, and that it was created as a social need by Capitalism, and as a word with bad connotations by disposseded people to describe it, as a socially rejected way of life (see Caliban and the Witch, by Federici). According to this, activities related to the social reproduction and to the needed life-caring and community mantaining systems should be called by the classical, pre-industrial term of labor.